英文+中英文稿，网盘word版：https://pan.baidu.com/s/1fAIL7Tt9PQnQIXbyGUVysw?pwd=e63q

(0:05 - 0:24)

Live from London, this is BBC News. The BBC understands officials would advise against a routine prostate cancer screening programme for the majority of men in the UK. Jim Reid, our health reporter, is with us, he'll have the latest on the reasons being given for that decision.

伦敦直播，您现在收看的是 BBC 新闻。BBC 获悉，官员们将建议不对英国大多数男性实施常规前列腺癌筛查计划。我们的健康记者吉姆·里德（Jim Reid）与我们连线，他将带来有关作出这一决定理由的最新消息。

(0:25 - 0:46)

Also with us for live reaction is Paul Lithe, who was diagnosed with prostate cancer, and Laura Kirby, who's CEO of Prostate Cancer UK. Our other headlines, after months of pressure from the UK, France has agreed to start intercepting migrant boats in the Channel. The death toll in the Hong Kong fires rises to 128.

与我们一起做现场反应的还有保罗·莱斯（Paul Lithe），他被诊断患有前列腺癌，以及前列腺癌英国（Prostate Cancer UK）首席执行官劳拉·柯比（Laura Kirby）。我们的其他头条新闻是：在英国数月施压后，法国已同意在英吉利海峡开始拦截移民船只。香港火灾死亡人数上升至 128 人。

(0:47 - 1:10)

Officials now say fire alarms weren't working effectively. And ahead of his new series about how the monarchy works, we hear from David Dimbleby, who's spent decades covering the most high-profile royal events. They're very discreet, but under questioning, they do admit where they may have got things wrong.

官员们现在表示，火灾警报未能有效工作。在他关于王室运作新系列节目录制前，我们听到了长期报道最受关注王室活动的大卫·迪姆比（David Dimbleby）的声音。他们非常谨慎，但在被问及时，确实承认了他们可能犯下的错误。

(1:20 - 1:44)

Hello, welcome to today's Verified Live, and we begin with breaking news on prostate cancer, the most common cancer in men globally, with 1.4 million new cases in 2022. Well, NHS advisers here in the UK have officially announced that they've decided against routine prostate cancer screening. The National Screening Committee has ruled out mass testing for all men over 50.

你好，欢迎收看今天的 Verified Live，我们先从关于前列腺癌的突发新闻开始。前列腺癌是全球男性中最常见的癌症，2022 年新增病例达 140 万例。英国国家医疗服务体系（NHS）的顾问们已正式宣布，他们决定不进行常规的前列腺癌筛查。国家筛查委员会已排除了对所有 50 岁以上男性进行大规模检测的方案。

(1:45 - 2:12)

It's thought to be worried about the potential harm from mass testing outweighing the number of lives saved. The committee has also decided against even a specific screening programme for black men who are at a greater risk of the disease, and against screening for men with a history of prostate cancer in their families. The only group who will be offered screening will be men with specific genetic mutations that can cause aggressive tumours.

委员会认为大规模检测可能带来的潜在害处超过其挽救的生命数量。委员会还决定不针对风险更高的黑色人种男性启动专门的筛查项目，也不对有家族前列腺癌病史的男性实施筛查。唯一会被提供筛查的是携带可导致侵袭性肿瘤的特定基因突变的男性。

(2:12 - 2:18)

Let's go straight to our health reporter, Jim Reid. He's there in the newsroom for us. And Jim, so they've rejected this.

我们直接连线健康新闻记者吉姆·里德，他在新闻编辑部为我们连线。吉姆，他们已经拒绝了这个建议。

(2:18 - 2:48)

Are you getting word in terms of their reasoning? That's interesting, isn't it? I mean, this is such a huge deal for, what, tens of thousands, if not more, men in this country every year. So if you look at the statistics on prostate cancer, 55,000 men in the UK alone diagnosed every year, and roughly 12,000 die. But as you said in the introduction, whereas we have kind of national screening campaign systems for other forms of cancer, lung cancer, for example, breast cancer, we do not have one for prostate cancer.

你能理解他们在推理上的观点吗？那很有意思，不是吗？我的意思是，这对每年在这个国家的数以万计（甚至更多）的男性来说是件大事。如果你看前列腺癌的统计数据，仅在英国每年就有 55,000 名男性被诊断出患有此病，约有 12,000 人死亡。但正如你在开场中所说，虽然我们对其他形式的癌症（例如肺癌、乳腺癌）有全国性的筛查宣传体系，但我们没有针对前列腺癌的筛查体系。

(2:48 - 3:11)

And that's been the big debate at the moment, whether men should receive a letter in the post on a regular basis every year, every couple of years, asking them to come forward to their GP for tests for this disease. Well, it's a very complex argument. We've had this panel of scientists that have looked at the arguments, both sides of the arguments for a good few months, couple of years on this, and have come to their big decision today.

这是目前的大争论点，即是否应该每年或每隔几年定期给男性寄信，要求他们到全科医生处接受这种疾病的检测。这个问题非常复杂。我们有一个科学家小组，几个月来甚至几年一直在审视支持和反对的论点，今天他们做出了重大决定。

(3:11 - 3:39)

And I should say there has been a big campaign from charities representing families, people involved, people who have lived through this disease. And some very high profile figures, David Cameron, the former prime minister of the UK, Rishi Sunak, Sir Chris Hoy, the Olympic gold medal cyclist, have all campaigned for more testing. But today, the decision, as you said, has been made not to set up this national testing campaign, at least for all men.

我还要说的是，代表家庭、受影响者以及经历过这种疾病的人士的慈善组织发起了大规模运动。一些知名人物——英国前首相大卫·卡梅伦、里希·苏纳克、奥运会金牌自行车手克里斯·霍伊爵士——都为更多检测奔走呼吁。但正如你所说，今天已决定不设立这项全国性检测运动，至少不会对所有男性开展。

(3:39 - 4:00)

Instead, there will be a limited number, roughly 20,000 men with a certain genetic mutation that will be asked to come forward on a regular basis for these tests. And the arguments against a national testing regime are that it could do, according to this report, more harm than good. And that's because prostate cancer is a very strange disease.

取而代之的是，将有一小部分人，大约 2 万名携带特定基因突变的男性，会被要求定期前来接受这些检测。反对建立全国性检测制度的论点是，根据这份报告，这样做可能弊大于利。这是因为前列腺癌是一种非常奇特的疾病。

(4:00 - 4:12)

For some people, it can be very aggressive. For others, you might not even notice you have prostate cancer. You can live with it for many, many years, maybe into your 90s, even later, and then die of a completely different cause.

对一些人来说，它可能非常具有侵袭性。但对于另一些人，你甚至可能察觉不到自己患有前列腺癌。你可以与它共存许多年，也许活到 90 多岁甚至更久，最终死于完全不同的原因。

(4:12 - 4:43)

And the argument is that some people might therefore, if they're diagnosed with prostate cancer, go through very aggressive treatments, diagnosis, biopsies, perhaps end up in a situation where some of those side effects, for example, things like incontinence, sexual dysfunction can have more of an impact on their life, cause more harm than the cancer itself. And that's why at the moment, at least, this decision has been made not to put in place this national screening for all men in the UK. Jim Reid, thanks very much.

他们的论点是，一些人在被诊断出患有前列腺癌后，可能会接受非常激进的治疗、诊断、活检，最终处于某种境地，其中一些副作用，例如尿失禁、性功能障碍等，可能对他们的生活造成更大的影响，带来的伤害比癌症本身还要多。这就是为什么目前，至少现在，决定不在英国为所有男性实施这项全国性筛查。吉姆·里德，非常感谢你。

(4:43 - 4:54)

We'll be back to you a little later on in the programme. Jim mentioning just some of the high-profile names that have campaigned. We had David Cameron, we had Rishi Sunak, and he was mentioning there Sir Chris Hoy.

我们稍后会在节目中再回到你那里。吉姆刚才提到了一些高调的倡议者名字。我们有大卫·卡梅伦，有里希·苏纳克，他还提到了克里斯·霍伊爵士。

(4:54 - 5:06)

He has just released a statement. Let me just read it to you. I am extremely disappointed and saddened by the recommendation announced by the National Screening Committee today to rule out against a national screening for men at high risk of prostate cancer.

他刚刚发表了一份声明。让我念给你听。我对国家筛查委员会今天宣布的建议深感失望和难过——该建议决定不对高危男性进行全国性前列腺癌筛查。

(5:07 - 5:24)

And he goes on to say, I know firsthand that by sharing my story, following my own diagnosis two years ago, many, many lives have been saved. Early screening and diagnosis saves lives. So that is what has just come from Sir Chris Hoy.

他说，我亲身经历过，分享我的故事——在两年前确诊之后——已经挽救了许多许多人的生命。早期筛查和诊断能拯救生命。这就是刚才克里斯·霍伊爵士所说的内容。

(5:24 - 5:38)

Let's continue with this because here in the studio with me is Paul Lithe, who was diagnosed himself with prostate cancer. We're also joined by Laura Kirby, who's CEO of the charity Prostate Cancer UK. Thank you both of you for being here with us.

我们继续这个话题，因为在演播室里和我在一起的是保罗·莱思，他本人被诊断出患有前列腺癌。我们还有来自慈善机构“英国前列腺癌”首席执行官劳拉·柯比。感谢你们两位来到这里和我们在一起。

(5:38 - 5:50)

So we've had official word. Laura, to you first of all, your immediate reaction. So Prostate Cancer UK are deeply disappointed with the fact that the evidence isn't there to tip screening.

我们已经收到了官方消息。劳拉，先听听你最直接的反应。英国前列腺癌对没有足够证据支持普查这一点感到非常失望。

(5:50 - 5:58)

The benefits are still being outweighed by the harm. So we're deeply disappointed. And this will be a blow to thousands of men.

好处仍然被伤害所抵消。所以我们非常失望。这对成千上万的男性将是一次打击。

(5:58 - 6:10)

And our heart goes out, as you'll hear from Paul, to those men that are going to be affected by this. Paul, tell me more about your story. When were you first diagnosed? Well, I was diagnosed by chance back in October 21.

我们的心与他们同在，正如你将从保罗那里听到的，那些将受到影响的男性。保罗，告诉我更多你的故事。你是什么时候被确诊的？好吧，我是在 21 年 10 月偶然被确诊的。

(6:11 - 6:42)

I went to the doctor for something completely unrelated, had no thoughts of prostate cancer, I had no symptoms or anything. But we did a blood test and the doctor happened to ask for a PSA test as part of that overall package. And within two days, I was asked to go to have further investigations because my reading was 56 and anything over four, I believe, is considered dangerous.

我去看医生是为了完全无关的事情，完全没有想到前列腺癌，也没有任何症状。但我们做了血液检查，医生碰巧在那个综合检查中要求做了 PSA 检测。两天内，我就被要求去做进一步的检查，因为我的数值是 56，而我相信超过 4 就被认为是危险的。

(6:42 - 6:51)

So 56 was pretty high. And having not been ill for 15 years, all of a sudden that was it. And I had no inkling at all.

所以 56 相当高。此前我已有 15 年没生病，突然就这样了。我完全没有任何预兆。

(6:51 - 7:00)

Yes. And you said in that answer you had no symptoms. You said to our producer when they told you it came like a bombshell.

是的。你在刚才的回答中说你没有症状。你对我们的制片人说，当他们告诉你时，这消息像一枚炸弹袭来。

(7:00 - 7:04)

Absolutely. Yeah, I had no idea. I thought it was the end of my life.

完全是的。是的，我完全不知道。我以为那是我生命的终结。

(7:05 - 7:15)

I hadn't read anything about it. I had no idea what the prostate did. Obviously, we've learned a lot of things since then, but I had lots of treatment.

我之前没读过任何相关资料。我不知道前列腺的作用显然，我们从那以后学到了很多东西，但我接受了许多治疗。

(7:15 - 7:25)

I had radiotherapy treatment and I've been off. I had to have hormones for three years. So the testosterone is what feeds the cancer.

我接受了放射治疗，然后停了。我不得不注射激素三年。睾酮就是滋养癌细胞的东西。

(7:25 - 7:35)

Well, that's the thought process. I was diagnosed with locally advanced. If it had been left any longer, then who knows what could have happened.

嗯，事情就是这么考虑的。我被诊断为局部晚期。如果再拖下去，谁也不知道会发生什么。

(7:36 - 7:54)

So just by chance, I was caught and I was able to be treated successfully, thankfully. Laura, in terms of the reasoning for not supporting screening black men, now it's reported that one of the reasons is that there was insufficient evidence. They get a more severe disease.

所以只是碰巧，我被发现了，幸好得到了成功治疗。劳拉，就不支持对黑人男性进行筛查的理由而言，现在有报道称其中一个原因是证据不足。他们会患上更严重的疾病。

(7:54 - 8:10)

What did you make of that, given that we know that for black men they are twice as likely to actually get prostate cancer? Yeah, so one in four black men will get prostate cancer in their lifetime. And the evidence is not conclusive. It's there's not enough data at the moment.

你怎么看这件事，鉴于我们知道黑人男性实际罹患前列腺癌的几率是其他人的两倍？是的，四分之一的黑人男性一生中会得前列腺癌。而现有证据并不确凿。目前的数据还不够。

(8:11 - 8:27)

And so what we're doing at Prostate Cancer UK is we've actually launched this large trial called Transform. And Transform will be focusing now on the evidence gaps that we see in the report once we get the full report through. What's the gap, given that we know that they are twice as likely? So the gap is the evidence is just not there.

因此，我们在前列腺癌英国（Prostate Cancer UK）所做的是，我们实际上发起了一项名为 Transform 的大型试验。Transform 将着重于报告中我们看到的证据空白，等我们拿到完整报告后再进一步研究。既然我们知道他们的患病几率是两倍，那空白在哪里？空白就在于证据根本不存在。

(8:27 - 8:38)

We can't prove the data. The data, there hasn't been enough data collected from black men to be able to prove that they wouldn't be put at more harm than benefit. So we need to get that data.

我们无法用数据证明这一点。目前尚未从黑人男性那里收集到足够的数据来证明筛查不会让他们遭受比受益更多的伤害。所以我们需要获取那些数据。

(8:39 - 8:57)

We will do that through Transform because 10% of Transform will be recruited from black men. And we're also putting together real world evidence. So what that means is we're putting a million pounds into collecting evidence now about what is happening to black men so that we can go back to the National Screening Committee and make a case at a later date.

我们将通过“Transform”来实现这一点，因为“Transform”计划中将有 10%的人来自黑人男性。我们也在收集真实世界的证据。也就是说，我们现在投入一百万英镑来收集有关黑人男性情况的证据，以便日后可以返回国家筛查委员会，并在以后的时间提出论据。

(8:58 - 9:20)

Can be just a brief thought on what Jim was saying. One of the reasons about harms outweighing the benefits, because you said right at the beginning how disappointed you were, because we've always known it's a sort of grappling, a trade off between those two things in terms of where this committee has landed. Your thoughts on that? So the National Screening Committee are the experts.

就吉姆所说的可以简要谈一下想法。关于伤害大于收益的原因之一，因为你一开始就说你有多失望，因为我们一直知道这在某种程度上是一个权衡，这两个方面存在拉扯，这个委员会的结论就是在这两者之间权衡而得。你对此有什么看法？所以国家筛查委员会是专家。

(9:21 - 9:48)

And so we respect the process that they've run and the draft recommendation that they've made. Prostate Cancer UK thought that as the way we diagnosed prostate cancer had changed so much with the MRI scan, that might have shifted the balance so that the benefit was greater than the harms. But the evidence shows quite clearly that the benefit, so men found with aggressive cancers that can be treated and cured does not outweigh the harms of over treatment.

因此我们尊重他们所进行的程序以及他们提出的草案建议。英国前列腺癌慈善机构认为，随着磁共振成像检查对前列腺癌诊断方式的改变，可能会改变这一衡量，使得收益大于伤害。但证据相当清楚地显示，收益——也就是发现可治疗和可治愈的侵袭性癌症的男性——并不足以超过过度治疗所带来的伤害。

(9:48 - 10:10)

So that's men with slow growing cancers that will cause them no serious risk having unnecessary tests and unnecessary treatment. Paul, let's turn to that issue that Jim also talked about, which was that they've also said no for cancers or screening for cancers where it's known to be within the family. Now, of course, you have a son.

所以那意味着患有生长缓慢、不会对他们构成严重风险的男性会接受不必要的检查和不必要的治疗。保罗，我们来说说吉姆也提到的那个问题，即他们也对已知有家族史的癌症或针对癌症的筛查说不。当然，你有一个儿子。

(10:11 - 10:35)

Tell me that story, because as well as your own diagnosis, there was more information that very quickly led on. So take me through that. Absolutely.

把那个故事告诉我，因为除了你自己的诊断之外，还有更多信息很快随之而来。那就跟我说说全过程。好的。

I have four sons. So following my diagnosis, it was recommended that any of them over 40 get tested. And my eldest son, who was 43 at the time, was sadly diagnosed with prostate cancer as well.

我有四个儿子。所以在我被诊断后，建议任何超过 40 岁的儿子去做检测。而我最大的儿子，当时 43 岁，不幸也被诊断出患有前列腺癌。

(10:36 - 10:48)

And he had no idea either. And he was told that he could, if it hadn't been found straight away, he could have been dead within five years. And he'd still only be 48.

他也完全不知道。而且有人告诉他，如果当时没有立即发现，他可能会在五年内死亡。那时他也才 48 岁。

(10:48 - 10:56)

Yeah. So it's crazy. And of course, that directly corresponds to exactly the issues we are talking about.

是的。这太疯狂了。当然，这也正好对应了我们正在讨论的问题。

(10:57 - 11:17)

There are the pictures there on the screen. So when you heard about the official saying no to any sort of family links and screening, what is your gut reaction to that? But I'm really sad and absolutely disappointed. One of the things that I've done for the last four years since diagnosis is campaign avidly.

屏幕上有那些图片。所以当你听到官方说不允许任何形式的家庭联系和筛查时，你的直觉反应是什么？我感到非常难过，完全失望。自从四年前确诊以来，我一直积极开展宣传活动，这是我所做的事情之一。

(11:17 - 11:33)

I play football. I've talked to lots of footballers and all to try and get them tested. In fact, last night I spoke to somebody said, I've asked my doctor for a test and he said, what do you want that for? Have you got any symptoms? No, we're just trying to preempt things.

我踢足球。我和很多足球运动员谈过，都是想尽办法让他们去检测。事实上，昨晚我和一个人谈过，他说我已经向我的医生要求做检测，医生问你为什么要做？你有什么症状吗？没有，我们只是想先发制人。

(11:34 - 11:45)

We find it by chance. What else can you do? Laura, a couple of final thoughts, if I can pull them all together. What does national screening cost? So give me that sort of an idea.

我们是偶然发现的。还能做什么呢？劳拉，最后再说几句，如果我能把它们都归纳起来。全国性的筛查需要多少钱？给我一个大概的概念。

(11:45 - 12:21)

Is it a factor? Do you think? And this basic decision, because we know, of course, there's a physical test you can have a blood test, but there are gaps, aren't there? So does today's decision, do you think, put lives at risk? So in terms of costs, I think we're not there yet because the argument has to be, first of all, one, that the benefits outweigh the harm. So how much this is actually going to cost becomes irrelevant until we actually are able to make that case. We must continue with raising awareness.

这是一个因素吗？你认为呢？还有这个基本决定，因为我们知道，当然，有一种体检，你可以做血液检测，但也存在盲点，不是吗？那么你认为今天的决定会不会让生命处于危险之中？在成本方面，我认为我们还没到那一步，因为首要的论点必须是，利益超过了伤害。所以在我们能够证明这一点之前，这究竟会花多少钱就无关紧要了。我们必须继续提高意识。

(12:22 - 12:30)

And as Paul says, talking to his football teams. But it's really important now that government does one of two things. First of all, it changed the rules.

正如保罗所说，与他的足球队谈话。但现在真正重要的是政府要做两件事中的一件。首先，它改变规则。

(12:30 - 12:43)

It changed the guidelines and allows for doctors to have proactive conversations with men in high risk groups, exactly as Paul said. They don't turn men away. And secondly, we really keep driving awareness.

它改变指南，允许医生像保罗所说的那样，主动与高风险人群的男性进行对话。他们不应把男性拒之门外。其次，我们必须继续推动意识提升。

(12:43 - 13:12)

So if men are in high risk groups, that's men over the age of 50, black men over the age of 45 and men with family history, they do get themselves forward, go and talk to the GP about having a PSA blood test. Could more lives be saved if this decision had gone the other way? I think until we get that evidence base and that's what Transform will do, it will look at how do you save more lives and how do you reduce the harms? And once we've got that balance right, then we will definitely be able to save more lives in the future. Well, then we have to leave it.

所以如果男性属于高危人群，即 50 岁以上男性、45 岁以上的黑人男性以及有家族病史的男性，他们应该主动去找全科医生谈谈进行 PSA 血液检测的事。若当初的决定反向，是否能挽救更多生命？我认为，在我们获得那样的证据基础之前——这正是 Transform 要做的——它将研究如何挽救更多生命以及如何减少伤害。一旦我们把这种平衡把握好，未来肯定能挽救更多生命。好吧，我们得把时间交还了。

(13:13 - 13:26)

But Laura Kirby, Paul Lye, thank you so much for coming in and giving us that sort of snapshot reaction to that news that has now been officially confirmed. Thank you so much for your time here. Well, plenty more on that story through the course of today's programme.

但劳拉·柯比、保罗·莱，感谢你们来这里就那则现在已被正式确认的消息做出简要反应，十分感谢你们抽出时间。今天节目中还有更多相关报道。

(13:26 - 13:51)

Let's turn to another story developing today because the BBC has been told that France has now agreed to intercept small boats in the Channel, a change of policy which could reduce the number of migrants arriving in Britain. It's a significant change of policy, which the UK government has been seeking now for months. It means French security forces will now be able to stop boats at sea before the people smugglers pick up their passengers.

让我们转向今天正在发展的另一则新闻，因为 BBC 获悉法国现在已同意在英吉利海峡拦截小艇，这一政策变化可能会减少抵达英国的移民数量。这是英国政府数月来一直在寻求的重大政策转变。这意味着法国安保部队现在将能够在走私者接载乘客之前，在海上阻止这些小艇。

(13:51 - 14:09)

Our Paris correspondent, Andrew Harding, has this report. You may remember these scenes and many more just like them. Police standing on the beaches of northern France, watching people and smugglers board small boats, unable to intervene because of strict safety rules.

我们的巴黎记者安德鲁·哈丁带来本报道。你可能还记得这些场景以及许多相似的画面。警察站在法国北部的海滩上，注视着人们和走私者登上小艇，却因严格的安全规定而无法干预。

(14:14 - 14:32)

Once we saw them wading into shallow waters to slash a so-called taxi boat, which had come along the coast to pick up passengers. But at sea, the French coastguards, as you can see here, made no attempt to stop any crossings. Now, though, the rules have been changed.

我们曾见过他们涉入浅水区割破所谓的“出租艇”，这些艇沿海岸来接乘客。但在海上，正如你在这里看到的，法国海岸警卫队并未尝试阻止任何横渡。现在，规则已经改变。

(14:33 - 14:53)

French security forces authorised to intercept the taxi boats, but only before they've picked up their passengers, when just the smugglers or their assistants are on board. Exactly how they'll intervene is unclear. We know the French have been testing this, throwing nets into the sea to snarl the boat's propellers.

法国安保部队获准在出租船接上乘客之前截拦它们，那时船上只有走私者或他们的助手。他们将如何具体干预尚不清楚。我们知道法国方面一直在试验这类手段，将渔网抛入海中以缠住船的螺旋桨。

(14:54 - 15:05)

For now, the system has been rejected. Today's news follows sustained pressure from Britain. This summer, President Macron agreed to look at measures to stop the boats at sea.

目前，该制度被否决。今天的报道是在英国持续施压后发表的。今年夏天，马克龙总统同意研究在海上拦截这些船只的措施。

(15:07 - 15:33)

But then came months of delay and debate. Today, a French newspaper quoted a recent letter from a frustrated Sakhir Starmer, in which he warned Mr Macron that there was no deterrent in the channel. So what difference will the new rules make to the smuggling gangs operating here in the grimy camps of northern France? On a visit last week, we saw plenty of people still keen to attempt a crossing.

但随后出现了数月的拖延与争论。今天，一家法国报纸引用了萨基尔·斯塔默（Sakhir Starmer）最近一封表露出沮丧的来信，信中他警告马克龙先生，英吉利海峡并没有威慑力。那么新规则会对在法国北部肮脏营地中活动的走私团伙产生什么影响？上周访问时，我们看到仍有很多人热衷于尝试越境。

(15:34 - 15:55)

In the past, the smugglers have been quick to adapt. The taxi boats themselves are a recent and highly successful tactical change, now responsible for at least half of all crossings. On shore, French police are already stretched, trying to intercept the smugglers before they launch their boats.

过去，走私者适应得很快。出租船本身是近期出现且极为成功的战术变化，如今至少负责一半以上的越境行动。在岸上，法国警方已人手吃紧，试图在走私者下水前截获他们。

(15:56 - 16:14)

It's not clear if France has enough patrol boats to make a serious dent in the smugglers' operations at sea. There are also enduring concerns about safety for all those involved in what could be dangerous interventions in the channel. Andrew Harding, BBC News, France.

目前尚不清楚法国是否拥有足够的巡逻艇，能在海上对走私者的行动造成实质性的打击。同时，人们也持续担忧所有参与者的安全——这些在英吉利海峡可能进行的干预行动存在危险。安德鲁·哈丁，BBC 新闻，法国。

(16:15 - 16:27)

Well, joining me now is the senior researcher at the Migration Observatory, Dr Peter Walsh. Doctor, welcome here to the programme. What do you make of this move? Well, this has been some months coming.

现在与我连线的是移民观察站的高级研究员彼得·沃尔什博士。沃尔什博士，欢迎来到节目。您如何看待这一举措？嗯，这件事酝酿已有数月。

(16:27 - 16:45)

I mean, you recall that the UK government quite proudly made the announcement of a proposed change to France's maritime policy in July after that summit with Kirstarmer and President Macron. But there have been a few barriers. The police union in France objecting.

我的意思是，您还记得英国政府在与基尔·斯塔默和马克龙总统举行峰会后，于七月颇为自豪地宣布拟议改变法国海事政策。但这期间出现了一些障碍。法国的警察工会表示反对。

(16:45 - 17:01)

They wanted to ensure that their employees would be safe and be properly equipped. There was a legal review that took some time. But perhaps the biggest barrier is that the biggest advocate of this policy in France, the former interior minister Bruno Rattayeur, well, he's now out of post.

他们希望确保其雇员的安全并得到妥善装备。还有一项法律审查耗费了一些时间。但也许最大的障碍是，在法国主张该政策的最大支持者、前内政部长布鲁诺·拉塔耶尔，如今已不再担任该职务。

(17:01 - 17:21)

But we understand now that these proposals, this much awaited change in maritime doctrine has finally happened. I'll come back to that point in a moment. But do you understand from what you've heard and read so far how exactly this might work at sea practically? We await the details on that.

但我们现在知道，这些提案，这一备受期待的海事学说变革终于发生了。我稍后会回到这一点。但就目前你所听到和阅读的内容而言，你是否理解这在海上实际运作的具体方式？我们还在等待更多细节。

(17:21 - 17:49)

I mean, clearly, it's a response to this more prevalent phenomenon of using taxi boats, so actually inflating the boats on parts of the coastline that are less heavily surveilled and then moving into shallow waters to pick up individuals. Now, I think a key part of this policy, of course, the way it's designed is that French officers will only be able to intervene if passengers have not been picked up. We know that the smugglers are highly adaptive.

我的意思是，显然这是对使用“出租艇”这种更普遍现象的回应，即在监视较少的海岸线某些地段将船只充气，然后驶入浅水区接载人员。我认为，这项政策的一个关键部分，当然，从设计上看，是法国军官只有在乘客尚未被接载时才可以干预。我们知道走私者具有很强的适应性。

(17:49 - 18:00)

I just wonder one response to this might be that they pick up a few passengers and so avoid this particular tactic. But we'll just have to wait and see. Operational details are still very light on the ground.

我只是想知道，对此的一种反应可能是他们先接载少数乘客，从而避免这一特定战术。但我们只能拭目以待。行动细节目前仍非常有限。

(18:00 - 18:23)

Yes. And they will be absolutely key because over the months, nets have been reported, all sorts of different ways of doing this. But of course, would they work? Do they come under maritime law? So let me turn to that question, because you referenced back in July, we saw those pictures of the French authorities flashing boats and stopping the actual launches.

是的。而且这些措施将非常关键，因为在过去几个月里，人们报道了各种各样的网、以及各种不同的做法。但这些方法是否有效呢？它们是否属于海事法的范畴？所以让我来谈谈这个问题，因为你提到在七月时，我们看到了法国当局用信号灯示警并阻止实际出航的那些画面。

(18:23 - 18:48)

But that rather robust response was put on pause, exactly as you said, whilst they try to figure out whether it all complied with maritime law. What can and can't be done under maritime law? Is it clear to you? It is fairly clear. At its heart, maritime law says the lives of people on board these boats.

但正如你所说，那种相当强硬的反应被暂时搁置了，正是在他们试图弄清这一切是否符合海事法的时候。海事法下可以做什么、不可以做什么？对你来说清楚吗？这相当清楚。海事法的核心是，船上人员的生命权。

(18:48 - 18:54)

And we know how precarious they are. They're increasingly overloaded. That is what's paramount.

而我们知道他们是多么岌岌可危。他们的负载正不断超载。那才是最重要的。

(18:55 - 19:23)

And under the existing policy, there was quite a high threshold for intervention, with the French officials only being able to intervene if there was an imminent threat to the lives of people on board the boats. And actually, it's a bit of an open question about the significance of what we saw just off the coast of Boulogne-sur-Mer in July, with those boats being slashed. Of course, some people thought, maybe this is a prelude to this tougher approach in maritime policy.

在现行政策下，干预的门槛相当高，法国官员只有在船上人员生命面临迫在眉睫的威胁时才能干预。事实上，对于我们在七月于布洛涅-苏尔-默海岸附近看到的那些船只被划破事件，其重要性仍有待商榷。当然，有些人认为，也许这是海上政策更强硬做法的前奏。

(19:23 - 19:41)

But that's not exactly clear. It may have just been the judgment call made by those officials that it was more dangerous not to intervene than to intervene. So everything is going to depend on the detail here to see actually whether this has the hoped for deterrent effect the government really wants.

但这并不完全清楚。也可能只是那些官员的判断认为不干预比干预更危险。所以一切将取决于此处的细节，才能看出这是否具有政府真正希望的威慑效果。

(19:42 - 19:54)

Just 30 seconds, if you would. If not this, then what, in your view? It's a very, very difficult challenge. I mean, the challenge here really is a question of a long coastline.

如果可以的话，给我三十秒。若不是这样，那么在你看来该怎么办？这是一个非常非常困难的挑战。我的意思是，这里的难题实际上是长长的海岸线问题。

(19:54 - 20:16)

The big question, will this have a deterrent effect? And I think it's going to depend fundamentally on just how many boats are intercepted. The available evidence from other countries like Australia suggests that physical interception does work, but it's really going to be a numbers game and whether enough boats are intercepted to put a material dent in small boat arrivals. Peter Walsh, it's all great to talk to you.

大问题是，这是否会产生威慑效果？我认为这在根本上将取决于到底截获了多少船只。来自澳大利亚等其他国家的现有证据表明，实际截获确实有效，但这实际上是一个数字游戏——是否有足够多的船只被截获，从而对小艇抵达造成实质性影响。彼得·沃尔什，很高兴与你交谈。

(20:16 - 20:26)

So thank you for joining us again on today's programme. Thanks for your time. More of the headlines here in a moment or two, but around the world and across the UK, you're watching BBC News.

感谢你再次加入我们今天的节目。谢谢你的时间。再过一两分钟我们会带来更多要闻，但在全球和整个英国范围内，你正在收看 BBC 新闻。

(21:38 - 21:58)

Straight to breaking news, it is coming from Ukraine. Let me tell you that President Zelensky's chief of staff has just resigned. We have been concentrating throughout the course of today on those raids at his home and some of the recent pictures, of course, involved in those discussions with Marco Rubio and the Americans.

直入突发新闻，消息来自乌克兰。让我告诉你，泽连斯基总统的幕僚长刚刚辞职。我们今天一直在关注针对他住所的那些突袭，以及一些最近的照片，当然这些都涉及与马可·卢比奥和美国人的那些讨论。

(21:59 - 22:22)

He has just resigned. Andrei Yermak, and of course, so much attention on him today with Ukraine's anti-corruption agencies beginning searches at his apartment. One of the two agencies, the Anti-Corruption Bureau, confirming its investigative searches had been authorised and said further details would follow.

他刚刚辞职了。安德烈·叶尔马克，当然，今天围绕他的关注度很高，乌克兰的反腐机构开始对他的公寓进行搜查。其中一个机构——反腐局，确认其调查性搜查已获授权，并表示随后会公布更多细节。

(22:22 - 22:44)

And a corruption scandal has engulfed several figures close to President Zelensky, though neither he nor his right-hand man Yermak have been accused of any wrongdoing. But very interesting that with all of this swirling around, he has decided to go. And of course, he is a really close adviser to President Zelensky.

一场腐败丑闻已将数名与泽连斯基总统关系密切的人卷入其中，尽管既没有指控泽连斯基本人，也没有指控他的亲信叶尔马克有任何不当行为。但很有意思的是，在这一切纷扰之中，他却决定离职。当然，他是泽连斯基总统非常亲近的顾问。

(22:45 - 23:03)

And you get a sense of that because he's so often in those pictures with the president in those pictures, those crucial talks about the 28-point peace plan when Marco Rubio was there. So a hugely important figure, the chief of staff, Andrei Yermak. And he has just resigned.

你可以从他经常出现在与总统的合影中感受到这一点，在那些照片里，他也出现在与总统就 28 点和平计划进行的重要会谈中（马可·鲁比奥出席时亦在场）。所以他是一个极其重要的人物——幕僚长安德烈·叶尔马克。他刚刚辞职了。

(23:04 - 23:14)

So that has just happened. It obviously will have serious implications. So we'll talk to our correspondent on that breaking news here on the programme in the next couple of minutes.

事情刚发生。这显然会产生严重影响。我们将在接下来的几分钟内在本节目中与我们的记者讨论这一突发新闻。

(23:14 - 23:32)

But that's important news just coming into us. Let's turn to Hong Kong and the fires, because the fire services there say alarms were not working properly in the tower blocks, which engulfed by flames. On Wednesday, the number of people confirmed to have died has risen to 128.

但是这确实是刚传来的重要消息。我们转到香港和那里的火灾，因为消防部门表示，塔楼内的警报器没有正常工作，整栋楼被烈焰吞没。周三，确认死亡人数已上升至 128 人。

(23:33 - 23:51)

The whereabouts of about 200 other people remain unclear. Reports from Hong Kong say eight people have been arrested on suspicion of corruption linked to the renovation works that were going on around those eight blocks. Well, let's speak again to Ryan Chang, a journalist based in Hong Kong.

大约 200 名其他人的下落仍不明。来自香港的报道说，有八人因涉嫌与正在进行的那八座楼的翻修工程相关的贪污被逮捕。我们再与驻香港记者张瑞安（Ryan Chang）通话。

(23:51 - 23:56)

And Ryan, thanks for joining us. We spoke to you yesterday. Developments, of course, today.

瑞安，感谢你加入我们。我们昨天也和你通了话。今天当然有了新的进展。

(23:56 - 24:32)

And I wanted to start by asking you how much anger is developing? There was shock in the first day, day and a half. But how much anger is there at some of the new details, basic details like fire alarm systems not working properly? Yes, well, it's all part of a tragedy with the fire alarms. Unfortunately, as fire department had said today and confirms that they've tested alarms at all eight buildings and they found that there was partially alarms that were tested after the fires had subsided and they had been malfunctioning.

我想先问问现在有多少愤怒在蔓延？第一天、一天半大家是震惊的。但随着一些新的细节曝光，比如火警警报系统没有正常工作，人们有多愤怒？是的，这一切都是这场悲剧的一部分。消防部门今天表示并证实，他们对全部八幢楼的警报器进行了检测，发现部分警报是在火势减弱后才被检测到的，并且这些警报器存在故障。

(24:32 - 25:03)

Now, of course, this confirms residents reports before the fire, where many of them had said that they did not hear the fire alarms when the flames had begun to erupt. And there's also probable anger as well at at the handling of the works, the construction works and the renovation works, of course, with the eight new arrests by the city's corruption watchdog, the ICAC. Three of them were part of a scaffolding subcontractor.

现在，当然，这证实了居民在火灾发生前的说法，他们中的许多人曾表示在火焰开始蔓延时并没有听到火警警报。对于工程施工和翻修工程的处理方式，显然也可能引发愤怒——该市反腐监察机构 ICAC 已再逮捕八人。其中三人隶属于一家脚手架分包商。

(25:03 - 25:30)

And there are four directors of this consultancy firm. And so on top of other three other arrests by the police earlier on suspicion of manslaughter, there's been a widening crackdown on those who've had to play a hand in this disaster. And the authorities, they are being pushed all the time, aren't they? On actually giving details of how many checks were done on this site over the last year.

还有四位是这家咨询公司的董事。因此，在此前警方因涉嫌过失杀人先行逮捕的另外三人之外，针对在这场灾难中可能有责任的人士的打击力度正在扩大。而当局也一直受到压力，不断被要求提供过去一年内对该工地进行了多少次检查的具体细节。

(25:30 - 26:03)

Also being really pushed on the speed in which these flames spread, because I read that the first ones were spotted at 1451. It took about six minutes to get to other floors, but a full 90 minutes to actually get to the second of the blocks. Yes, well, officials today really put their focus on explaining how the super fast spread of the flames had gone up through the bamboo scaffolding, and they placed the blame quite squarely on the use of styrofoam ceilings on windows.

他们还在强烈关注火焰蔓延的速度，因为我读到第一处起火点是在 14:51 被发现。火势大约用了六分钟就蔓延到其他楼层，但却花了整整 90 分钟才真正蔓延到第二个楼群。是的，官员们今天确实把注意力放在解释火焰如何通过竹脚手架迅速向上蔓延上，并且他们相当明确地将责任归咎于窗户处使用的聚苯乙烯泡沫板（Styrofoam）天花板。

(26:04 - 26:19)

And of course, it's a criminal investigation has been launched to find the causes of the fire itself. And how it spread. But union leaders of a bamboo scaffolding group have spoken on radio today.

当然，也已展开刑事调查以查明火灾本身的起因，以及它是如何蔓延的。但一个竹脚手架工会的领袖今天在电台上发表了讲话。

(26:19 - 26:34)

And of course, these experts have also been consulted by the government. And they said that there are currently no controls to regulate that use of material on construction sites. And also, it's a very common trade practice in Hong Kong because it's very cheap and light.

当然，这些专家也已被政府咨询。他们表示，目前没有对建筑工地上该类材料的使用进行任何监管控制。而且在香港这是很普遍的行业做法，因为这种材料非常便宜又轻便。

(26:35 - 26:56)

Ryan, a final thought, because we know that firefighters are hoping to actually go into those blocks at some stage today. Every likelihood seems to point to that death toll rising sharply with so many people still unaccounted for. Yes, well, there's of the over 120 dead.

瑞安，最后一个想法，因为我们知道消防员希望今天某个阶段实际上进入那些楼栋。种种迹象都表明，随着仍有许多人下落不明，死亡人数很可能会大幅上升。是的，在一百二十多人死亡的数字中。

(26:56 - 27:14)

So the police and the authorities have yet to confirm identities of approximately a third of those. So they gave a rough estimate of 89 people. And so the 200 people that are unaccounted for that includes those 89 people, which are the bodies that have been recovered.

所以警方和当局还没有确认大约三分之一遇难者的身份。他们给出了大致的估计为 89 人。因此那 200 名尚未找到的人当中包括那 89 人，也就是已经被发现的遗体。

(27:15 - 27:34)

But what if what is basically unsaid here by officials, officials, is that the intensity of the fire may have burned them to the point where they are barely recognizable. And so as the days go past, the figure of 200 unaccounted for will be dropping. And however, as that would also mean that casualty numbers will rise.

但官员们基本上没有明说的是，大火的高温可能把他们烧得几乎无法辨认。所以随着时间推移，那 200 名下落不明者的数字会减少。然而，这也意味着伤亡数字会增加。

(27:34 - 27:51)

And the police have also gave a warning that as they go through the rooms and the floors one by one in the three to four week investigation that they will be holding, yes, that there will be a chance of casualties rising. Ryan Chang, thanks so much for giving us that update from Hong Kong. We're about to take a short break.

警方还警告说，在他们进行为期三到四周的逐户逐层搜查时，伤亡人数可能会增加。瑞安·张，感谢你从香港带来最新情况。我们即将短暂休息。

(27:51 - 28:01)

When we're back, we'll talk more about those breaking developments in Ukraine with President Zelensky's chief of staff resigning. More on that story here in just a moment or two. Don't go away.

我们回来后会就乌克兰的那些突发事态做更多讨论，乌克兰总统泽连斯基的幕僚长辞职。更多相关报道将在一两分钟后呈现，别走开。